Does sin cause death, or death, sin? February 2, 2009
Posted by Damian in Biblical Exegesis and Interpretation.Tags: death, Experimental Theology, malthus, malthusian, Richard Beck, sin, thomas malthus
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I’ve been reading Richard Beck’s series on Thomas Malthus, and it raised this question: Does scripture say that Death is the result of sin, or that Sin is the result of death? Or does it say neither, simply positing a relation between the two?
According to the Genesis record, death is a result of sin (2-3).
That seems obvious to me. What am I missing?
Well, I wonder because Richard is exploring an understanding of sin as resulting from death, rather than death as a result of sin. The closest Genesis comes to saying it outright is in 3:3, where Eve claims the apple will kill her. But death is included nowhere in God’s curse on man. And this does not indicate that sin results in death, just that eating an apple resulted in death. The Orthodox I’m told support this ’sin results from death’ understanding. I was wondering if there was real support for either.
Hi friend,
What about Romans 5:12?
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
May God bless you and yours.
That’s just what I was looking for, Creeker. Thanks! Anyone else have anything?
Interesting that you brought up this question…
I have been reading “Light from the Christian East: An Introduction to the Orthodox Tradition” by James Payton (IVP Academic), which is a great primer written for primarily Protestants.
On pp. 112-113, Payton, in discussing the Fall, points out that EO Christians teach that, like Western Christians, death was the result of sin (Romans 5:12). However, he points out that the reverse is also a part of Orthodoxy: we sin because death is the reality–kind of like, “Eat, drink, and be merry [i.e., sin all you like], for tomorrow we die.”
In his footnote, he gives a great take on Romans 5:12, which can also be translated as: “and so death spread to ll, because of which [referring back to 'death'] all have sinned.” Very interesting!
Thanks, Ray.
I’ll take a look at that book – I’m a fan of Orthodoxy, but it’s hard to find good books on the subject that don’t presume Orthodoxy. Thankyou.
I need to study my Greek harder, because I can’t see that meaning very clearly in Romans 5:12 (not to shoot you down – I really need to study my Greek harder). But it’s interesting that there is a chance that both are valid ways of looking at the problem.
But what you say is, more or less, what makes me ask the question. Because, if fear of death causes us to sin – ie. if we weren’t to die, we wouldn’t be desperate enough to drive us to it – it puts a very different light on a lot of Scripture. In my eyes, anyway.
Hi friends,
Lets look at Adam to help us with this question. Why did He transgress the law God gave him? His was the first sin by which we are all born with A.K.A. “The original sin of Adam”.
Did he sin because he was going to die or did he die because he sinned? I feel the Bible tells us plainly (Gen 2:17). Death was the penalty for his sin. Adam had no promise of death unless he sinned.
So, in Paul’s statement in Rom 5:12, I do not find that was his message (Death brought forth sin).
Today, people may try to use their logic in the society we live in to point out many things. One of which may even be this topic but I truly feel the Bible teaches us that sin brought death…. not the other way around.
People may choose to take the attitude that “I’m going to die so I am going to enjoy sinful pleasures (Live, drink and be merry)”, but that is simply their look on life and has nothing to do with truth. It is just a point of view.
Since Adam was the first to sin, I think the answer lies there. So, “Why did Adam sin”?
Genesis 2:17 doesn’t say that death was a penalty for sin. It says that the consequence for eating an apple was death. It might be important, for this conversation, not to conflate the two. In any event, the actual curse of death does not occur (interestingly enough). But, that said, I’m not making an argument for ‘Death brought sin’ here – I’m honestly curious about the grounds for the understanding. I’d love for any Orthodox readers of this blog to chime in!
I don’t mean ‘I’m going to die so I may as well enjoy pleasure’, but rather the fact that impending death drives us to compete for survival. This competition results in sin. And looking at it like that, then this competition – with God, no less – as spurred on by the serpent, is quite reasonable.
Did I misphrase earlier? Is knowledge of death what brings us to sin?
Good brother,
Gen 2:17 says “but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it (Law): for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die (Result of breaking the law or consequence).
It is important to seek scripture for answers. What I have found is that sometimes our definitions of words or phrases may not be what is actually written. In this discussion, it is important to define a few words. If you are developing a systematic theology or just have a desire to better understand scripture, it is extremely important to let scripture define itself rather than us trying to define scripture.
In my studies, I have found that sin is the transgression of God’s law. In reading Romans 7:7-13, Paul tells us that he had not known sin, but by the law. He also tells us that he was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and he died. Now this was not a physical death, but it was death all the same.
I find that death may not be what we presume it to be. Scripture teaches me that death is lifelessness. It is to be separated from the living.
When a person dies a physical death, he is then separated from the physical living. He is unable to commune with others that are still naturally alive. Those that die a spiritual death, but are still naturally alive, are separated from something. I ask you good brother, what are they separated from?
When looking at Adam, he did die when he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. There was no delay. By God’s grace, He allowed Adam to naturally remain alive for a time, only because it was His plan for salvation to come through child bearing (The way Christ was to be brought into the world). But Adam did die spiritually at the very moment he defied God’s law. In Gen 2:25, Adam was naked and not ashamed. Adam was free to eat of any tree in the garden except one. He chose to eat from the forbidden tree. When that happened, something immediately happened to him. In 3:7, he was naked and covered himself (He was ashamed). He died as a result of his sin. Sin brought forth death, not the other way around.
Adam was driven from the garden, why? Scripture teaches us that is was so he could not eat of the tree of LIFE (Gen 3:22). He was separated from life. Even though he was walking, talking, breathing, etc.. He was dead, with no chance to recover.
Christ teaches us that He is the life (John 14:6). Only in Him do we have life and forgiveness of sins. This does not mean that we physically will not die. Scripture teaches us that sin is sown in our flesh. This body must lay down, but spiritually we will never be separated from the love of God (Die).
I do not view death as something to come. The truth is, when the commandment came to us, we were just like Adam and Paul, we died. I do not see an impending death striving us to compete for survival. The Bible teaches us that if we have been born again, we have passed from death unto life (John 5:24) and if we haven’t been born again, we are already dead.
It is good to question and discuss possibilities, but in the end we must let the word of God and the Holy Spirit be our guide. Study and pray on the matter and God will reveal the answers. I hope I have been of some help on this subject.
May God bless you in all that you do. Praise be to God!!
Creeker,
I apologise in advance for the brief reply to your in depth comment, but the week is turning out to be quite busy, and a short reply now is less rude than a long reply later.
It seems to me that – whilst your interpretation is valid, and probably right (it certainly has western tradition backing it) – you’re assuming it’s the only possible interpretation of the texts involved. That’s not necessarily true, and it might not even be the only possible theologically true interpretation (although God only knows that).
The problem is that there doesn’t seem to be a lot of evidence that God referred obliquely to a spiritual death in Genesis, despite the lack of instant death. It could have been long life prior, or immortality. We’re not clear about it.
What Paul says in Romans is saying that sin was not known except for by the law. It’s not saying that sin is a transgression; it’s saying that sin is hidden, except through the law which reveals it.
All of these things are strong possibilities. I’m interested in these alternatives, especially if they shine more light on our relationships with God and the world.
Your input is most certainly appreciated, Creeker. Please continue reading (and commenting!) here. God bless.
Damian
Brother Damian,
It is important to know that I am not trying to push a belief on you. What I am saying is the way I see scripture. I do not try to fit scripture into my belief, but rather believe what it says and try to understand it.
As far as Adam goes, scripture says that “for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die”. Therefore, I believe it. I believe he died just as the Lord said. Now, he obviously didn’t die naturally because he lived many days after that so in what way did he die? Again, I leave that to you to study and pray about, but according to the Lord, he did die.
As for the opening question, I stand firm on death bringing forth sin. Not just because of Adam, but also because of Paul’s writing in Romans. We have discussed Romans 5:12, but Romans 6:23 is a good read on this subject as well.
God bless good brother.
Creeker,
I didn’t mean to suggest you were ‘pushing’ – I’m sorry if I offended you. I’m enjoying the conversation.
You must realise that I too come from a similar tradition to you – it is my natural inclination to interpret the way you do. However, I don’t feel my relationship with God benefits from standing staunch in the viewpoint I was taught. So I apologise if I’ve offended you.
I hope you continue reading here despite me.
Brother Damian,
You have not offended me at all. I was just letting you know that my goal in any conversation is not change people’s belief, but rather make them think and study for themselves.
You are very correct when you speak about standing in one point of view. When I was a young Christian, I believed what I heard (Because it was the way everybody else believed and taught). I come to realize, that if I believe the same way now that I did 14 years ago then that means one of two things: Either I knew it all then or I haven’t grown in the Word. Needless to say, I have changed my views about a great many things. It helps to talk to other believers, study the Word and pray. My goal is the same as yours, to grow in the Word. We all have room for growth. When we think we have come to a place where we no longer need it, we are deceived…
Lots of love good brother and may God bless…
Very, very true. Thankyou. God bless you too,
Can we say that Christ, who knew no sin, would not have died if he had not been crucified? Would Adam have lived forever, physically, if he had not sinned?
What was the promise of eternal life held out to him prior to the fall if he already had eternal life?
Michael,
I don’t think it can be said whether or not they’d have lived forever. Although very good point regarding – why is eternal life presented to Adam if Adam already had this gift?
The concept I’m approaching here, is the idea that the knowledge of impending death causes men to fight for survival – and from this fight between men to conquer death, comes sin.