Blind Comparison: 1 Thessalonians 5:14 September 26, 2008
Posted by Damian in Translation & Linguistics.Tags: admonish the idle, admonish the unruly, blind comparisons, greek, Thessalonians, translation
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Ok guys, we’re looking at 1 Thessalonians 5:14. This is a blind comparisons, as it’s all the vogue right now, but my real interest is in a particular question that I’ll ask after you read the translations.
And we urge you, brothers, warn those who are idle, encourage the timid, help the weak, be patient with everyone.
We urge you, brethren, admonish he unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with everyone.
Brothers and sisters, we urge you to warn those who are lazy. Encourage those who are timid. Take tender care of those who are weak. Be patient with everyone.
And we urge you, brothers, admonish the idle, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with them all.
And we exhort you, brothers: warn those who are lazy, comfort the discouraged, help the weak, be patient with everyone.
And we urge you, brothers and sisters, warn those who are idle and disruptive, encourage the disheartened, help the weak, be patient with everyone.
My big question is about the Greek. The Greek word that’s translated as ‘idle’ in the first translation, ‘atakos‘, I understand from Strongs to mean undisciplined or insubordinate rather than ‘idle’. Yet a generous number of translations choose to translate as idle. Are all these translations inaccurate, or am I missing something?
And, the obvious questions, which translation do you prefer, and can you pick them? For the record, the final one I quoted is my favourite. But this may change, if I’m given a good answer to my earlier question.
Update: I misquoted the word earlier, as I was squinting at my Strong’s in the dark. Thanks for El Shaddai Edwards to drawing attention to the mistake in his reply here.
According to Blue Letter Bible, the Greek ataktos meant: “1) disorderly, out of ranks (often so of soldiers); 2) irregular, inordinate, immoderate pleasures; 3) deviating from the prescribed order or rule” and goes on to comment that “this word was used in Greek society of those who did not show up for work.” Vine’s leans toward the first meaning, especially in a military context.
With that said, I’m not sure I like “idle” as it’s rather vague. Does it mean that the person is not doing something that they should be doing, e.g. work or contributing to the life of the church; or does it mean allowing things to happen without stepping in (perhaps a twist on “disruptive”); or does it mean “lazy” as two of the choices put it?
Rather than choose one of the blind options, here’s my own take:
[...] at Castle of Nutshells has a new post up with a blind translation comparison of 1 Thessalonians 5.14, quoted here from the REB (not one [...]
Thanks, E.S., that helps me understand a lot. I really need a few good lexicons. But then, I also really need to learn Greek
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I like your take – but, even with what you said, I think the final translation I posted caught was equally fair.
Yes, I agree with you that the final option was the most agreeable of what you presented – I really like the choice of “disheartened”. I must qualify myself in that I don’t know Greek – I’m just a Strong’s user, which only gets you so far, especially in grammatical nuance. I’d love to find a NASB keyed with Strong’s numbers online – that would fit my study habits more than the KJV text that BLB uses.
Beale says that Fee suggested “unruly” for the update to the NIV (didn’t make it apparently) and he agrees with 1) disorderly, out of ranks. He also says they may be lazy in not working because they thought the end was very near but also being busy bodies by doing the wrong things and possibly also participating in the spreading of the false teachings.
Jeff
ElShaddai try this:
http://www.studylight.org/isb/
Under Translation: choose NAS Strong’s Version
This will give you the Thayer’s definition which is what you’re getting on Blue Letter Bible.
Jeff
Good stuff.
ElShaddai Edwards’ translation is pretty good and I like the parallelism in it (“…discipline the undisciplined…”). That really brings out part of the underlying message: get things in order.
I sat down with Thayer’s and my Maj Text and translated it as followed:
“We are calling upon you, brothers and sisters–correct those who need correcting, console the ones who are disheartened, support those who cannot support themselves, be patient with all…”
Some points of interest in translation:
1) The first verb there is a little tricky to translate: “parakaloumen.” It’s Present Active Indicative 1st Plural (nothing odd about that but it does suggest using the present tense “we are ….ing”) of a word meaning “call near.” I’ve taken this to mean a matter of calling somebody to join you in a set of actions. It’s also a word that could mean “exhort” or “invoke.”
2) I choose “brothers and sisters” for “adelphoi” not because it’s the manifest meaning but because it’s the latent meaning and choosing only to say “brothers” in our time period would be as bad a perversion of the meaning of the text as somebody might charge me with for using “brothers and sisters.”
3) I’m not so troubled by “ataktous” (Thayer’s: “deviating from the prescribed order or rule”) as I am of the verb “noutheteite.” The above translations use “admonish” or “warn” but leave out some of the mending nature of the verb that implies correction. It literally means “to put in mind.”
4) “faint-hearted” or “timid” here is “oligopsychous” from “oligos” (little or small) and “pysche” (soul, self, mind). It has been taken to mean “feeble-minded” but this is probably reaching too far for what is meant in 1 Thessalonians. I like “disheartened” and “discouraged” because they are accessible words that seem to talk about those who are close to “giving up” or whose faith is small. In this sense, it might be nice to translate the verb for this noun as “console and walk alongside” since it does mean, literally, “relate near.”
5) I don’t like the use of the words “strength” or “strengthen” in this verse because the typical word used in relation to strength (iskuros) is absent entirely. Rather, we have words referencing capacity for standing or self-supporting. This isn’t “getting ripped for God” but, rather, a matter of mending the broken and carrying along those who are falling.
Hope that wasn’t too much but I really enjoy this kind of stuff.
Jeff, the TNIV should have included Fee’s suggestion.
But I think I like, Elshaddai’s translation better.
There were a number of Fee’s suggestions that Beale mentioned for some reason and I don’t think any of them made it, or not the majority anyway. I wish I would have kept track of them.
Jeff
Jeff: ElShaddai try this: http://www.studylight.org/isb/
Thanks, Jeff – that looks really promising. I’ll have to use it for my next few posts and see how it goes.
Josh: ElShaddai Edwards’ translation is pretty good and I like the parallelism in it (”…discipline the undisciplined…”).
Thanks Josh! You’re right, I *was* making parallelism a specific focus of that translation. Given your explanation, I like “correct” there as well.
Beale says that Fee suggested “unruly” for the update to the NIV [...]
If I’m remembering correctly, “unruly” was the KJV’s choice for ataktos… yes, StudyLight confirmed that (thanks, Jeff!).
Jeff, I think a whole lot made it in the TNIV. In fact, before the TNIV came out, I used his Philippians commentary and noticed his retranslations and most of them are now in the TNIV.
Also, his textual critic touch is reflected in the TNIV. And don’t even mention the emphasis on the Spirit, with the capital “S”!
I’m a bit late to the discussion, but I liked the last translation the best also; I must confess that ElShaddai posted a fabulous translation of his own as well.
Wow guys, thanks for the response! The translations were, in order, NIV, NASB, NLTse, ESV, HCSB, TNIV, for anyone who was wondering.
E.S., I use the NASB Key-Word Study Bible, which serves the purpose you speak of exactly. I know what you mean about nuance,though – my next buy is going to be Mounce’s course in Greek, although God knows how I’ll find the time to study it.
Josh, Certainly not too much – I wish I knew the Greek as well as you did! It’s illuminating, especially your comment on ‘noutheteite’.
T.C., Do you think so? KJV & BASB, both use unruly, but the majority of translations are some form of idle, and I think TNIV (the one I preferred) makes a good compromise between the two with its “idle and disruptive”.
Jeff,
I like Beale’s comment: ‘may be lazy in not working because they thought the end was very near but also being busy bodies by doing the wrong things and possibly also participating in the spreading of the false teachings.’.
I think that’s fairly specific, but it isn’t communicated well in any of the translations. it makes it sound like more of a theological reprimand, along the lines of ‘Correct those whose misunderstanding of the gospel causes them to act disruptively or not to act at all.’
Damian, the TNIV is not bad, but it could have been better.